Thread Comparisons

[Vi Hunt]

First of all, I apologise if you read this twice as I have put the same in blogs (I'm not surewhere things should go!).

Hi everybody. I am very new to needle lace and really would like to learn to make it. I am struggling with the threads suggested in patterns. If it says, for example, Machine 30 and 50 and I don't have these, how can I substitute something similar if I don't have any idea of the thickness of the threads? Does the thickness differ in say a machine 30 and a crochet 30 or are they the same? Very confusing! Also, I am not really doing well when I use the thinner threads. At the moment the finest I can manage is perle #12. If I use this thread when the above 30 and 50 is suggested would I have to enlarge my pattern? I hope all this makes sense and that one of you talented ladies can help me find out.

[Lorelei Halley]

Vi: thread numbers are very confusing, I agree.  Crochet is usually worked on a relatively coarse scale compared to traditional needle lace.  Crochet cotton 30 is a little thicker than a pearl 12.  But machine threads 30 and 50 are much finer, and comparable to the sizes of quilting threads.  So here are some equivalents (or similars) that I use.  Each line are  rough equivalents, coarsest first.  A is coarsest, E finest.

A: crochet cotton #30, DMC Cebelia #30, Anchor or DMC Cordonnet #30, Fresia linen 30/2

B: crochet cotton cordonnet #40 DMC or Anchor, pearl 12, Sulky 12, Aurifil 12, Bockens linen 35/2

C: Cordonnet 80 (tatting cotton), Fresia linen 80/2, Egyptian cotton 40/3, Brok cotton 36/3

D: Aurifil 28, Sulky 30, DMC Retors 30 or Broder machine 30, Brok 36/2, linen 100/2, Madeira Tanne 30

E: Aurifil 50, Sulky quilting cotton 50, DMC Retors 50 or Broder machine 50, Bockens linen 90/2, Fresia linen 120/2, Egyptian or Brok cotton 60/2, Brok 100/3, Madeira Tanne 50

Not everybody will agree with my equivalents in all the details.  But these are equivalences that I use in bobbin lace.  The Aurifil and Sulky threads are quilting threads and are beautiful with lots of colors.  The Madeira Tanne is no longer manufactured, but some of us have it on hand.  Lizbeth Cordonnet numbers seem to be comparable to DMC and Anchor (I only have #20 and it matches DMC 20).

[Vi Hunt]

Thankyou for that information Lorelei. I have copied and pasted it into a Word document so that I can print it out and keep it handy. I am going to the 20th Great Northern Lace Fair on 15th October so I will look out for these threads (can't wait!).

[Lorelei Halley]

Vi

I realize I didn't address the problem of enlarging the pattern.  I usually work each pattern on a larger scale than the designer intended because of eyesight issues.  So I usually also enlarge each pattern.  How much depends on the pattern.  Are you about to start something in particular?  If it is one of the patterns from our site, let me know and perhaps I can suggest something.  I'm still fairly new at needle lace so I have only 1 1/2 years experience to draw on.

 

One other thing.  In most cases the thread that you use for the outline/cordonnet should be thicker than the lace thread.  So if you want to use pearl 12 as the lace thread, you should use crochet cotton #10 or 20 for the outline thread.

[Vi Hunt]

Hi Lorelei, I bought the suggested dvd by Carol Williamson and I am attempting to do the practice pattern that came with it.

Lorelei Halley said:

Vi

I realize I didn't address the problem of enlarging the pattern.  I usually work each pattern on a larger scale than the designer intended because of eyesight issues.  So I usually also enlarge each pattern.  How much depends on the pattern.  Are you about to start something in particular?  If it is one of the patterns from our site, let me know and perhaps I can suggest something.  I'm still fairly new at needle lace so I have only 1 1/2 years experience to draw on.

[Lorelei Halley]

What size thread does Carol Williamson suggest for her pattern?  Vi, if you haven't done any needlelace before, you might want to start with something simpler.  That pattern and style are really rather difficult for a beginner.  We have an album full of possible patterns, and some would be much easier as a first attempt:  http://needlelacetalk.ning.com/photo/albums/needle-lace-patterns?xg...   There are several simple leaf patterns which would be better for a first piece.  Then you could move on to Williamson's.

[Vi Hunt]

Carol Williamson uses 30 and 50 DMC Brilliante (Broder Machine) which, I believe, is no longer available Lorelei. I will have a look at something easier though.

[Lorelei Halley]

Vi: DMC 30 and 50 Broder Machine are comparable to groups D and E respectively, in my note above.  So, for a pattern on that scale, if you want to work it in pearl 12, I would enlarge it to 133% of its original size.  Save that for your 2nd or 3rd project.  I did write 2 beginner tutorials which you can access from our BEGINNERS opening page.  But if you don't like those patterns, there are other choices.  Any of those in the top 3 rows of patterns in the link above would be suitable. 

 

Since you, lucky lady, are going to a lace fair on October 15, you might also look at the recommended books list on our BEGINNERS group.  Perhaps you can find a book or 2.

http://needlelacetalk.ning.com/group/beginners/page/recommended-boo...

 

[Vi Hunt]

Thanks for that information Lorelei, it will be a great help to me. I will now go to the beginners group and stop trying to run before I can walk! I have collected a few books so far but always room for more (and more threads, etc.,).

[Lorelei Halley]

Just for future reference, thread sizes are also a problem for bobbin lacemakers.  And Brenda Paternoster has written a book with detailed lists of thread equivalents.  Every few years she publishes and update, and between updates she posts information on new threads on her website.  I don't have a copy of her book, but many bobbin lacemakers swear by it.

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/threads.html

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/threads.html#addenda

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/manufacturers.html 

These are the relevant pages in her website. Her book THREADS FOR LACE is availabel through her website, but many bobbin lace suppliers also carry it, and you may find shipping is easier through a supplier in your own country.  Bobbin lacers with thread questions often write to arachne and someone chimes in with an answer.  If you have other lace interests in addition to needle lace, you might want to think about joining arachne.

On arachne, a newsgroup for all forms of lacemaking:

• arachne.com newsgroup    Instructions for joining:     http://www.arachne.com/list_instructions.html  

• arachne's archive of its discussions:   http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/index.html  

 

[Vi Hunt]

Hi Lorelei, I've just had a look at that website and some of the suppliers that Brenda mentions will be attending the lace fair. Also Jo Firth, one of the suppliers mentioned, lives only a few miles away from me.  I will try and get a copy as it sounds like just what I need. I have spent the evening couching down the cordonnet on the beginners bookmark and it is taking forever. I am doing the large size which brings me to another question - if I enlarge the size, are the couching stitches still one eighth of an inch apart or should they be further apart in keeping with the larger size?

Lorelei Halley said:

Just for future reference, thread sizes are also a problem for bobbin lacemakers.  And Brenda Paternoster has written a book with detailed lists of thread equivalents.  Every few years she publishes and update, and between updates she posts information on new threads on her website.  I don't have a copy of her book, but many bobbin lacemakers swear by it.

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/threads.html

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/threads.html#addenda

http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/manufacturers.html 

These are the relevant pages in her website. Her book THREADS FOR LACE is availabel through her website, but many bobbin lace suppliers also carry it, and you may find shipping is easier through a supplier in your own country.  Bobbin lacers with thread questions often write to arachne and someone chimes in with an answer.  If you have other lace interests in addition to needle lace, you might want to think about joining arachne.

On arachne, a newsgroup for all forms of lacemaking:

• arachne.com newsgroup    Instructions for joining:     http://www.arachne.com/list_instructions.html  

• arachne's archive of its discussions:   http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/index.html  

 

[Lorelei Halley]

An eighth of an inch to 3/16, or 2 or 3 mm is probably best.  And yes, the couching is time consuming.  I find it somewhat aggravating, too.  It is just part of needlelace.  The effort you are putting into it will be worth it in the long run.

[Elizabeth Ligeti.]

Yes, you will need to enlarge your pattern if it is for the fine 30 or 50 thread - sewing thread weight used for bobbin lace, as crochet cotton is much thicker, as is the perle.  Using thicker threads is quite Ok, and a good idea for beginners, anyway.

Lizbeth threads come in 20,40, & 80 (as far as I know) and I have the 40, and it is nice for needlelace - well, I have used it for knotted lace and it works up beautifully. Tatting thread #80 works well for needlelace, too, as do most of the Crochet cottons.