i would like to open this thread for the discussion of turkish oya needle lace techniques. we need a place to share our attempts (failures or successes!), questions, tips and generally a place to help each other learn this style of lace. hopefully we can learn more as a group than as serperate members who are trying to learn on our own!! i would like to keep this area of the topic of turkish oya needle lace, because i see some cross over on the comments wall about the italian version of puncetto, and i would like to see the two kept seperate so as not to cause confusion for those who are learning!

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i have only been trying to teach myself turkish needle lace for a couple of days now. i am currently using armenian needlelace and embroidery by alice odian kasparian.

my biggest frustration right now is how to tension the knots of the lace. it mentions nothing in the book i have about this, only that depending on what pattern you are doing, you adjust the size of the loops, but it doesn't tell you HOW to do this. i have watched over and over the videos that are available on the internet *mostly youtube* but you can't see the hands of the lace maker's closely enough to discern what they are really doing. so any tips and suggestions from anyone on how you make your loops the desired will be greatly appreciated!!! this is the main thing i am struggling with right now!

i also feel it relevant to mention here that the only videos i can find on the internet are NOT how-to videos. most of them are in turkish with no translation available. if i was more experienced in this type of lace, and had the equipment, i would make a video to post on the internet- there needs to be more awareness and learning resources for this lace so it doesn't die off with the current generation of people who are very skilled in it. so i am making a call, to anyone who has the basic skills of this lace and the resources available to make a video and share it: PLEASE HELP US!!! hopefully, in my future i will be able to do the same :D
Jessica
That is why I started needlelacetalk in the first place. We have several members who have tried oya, but they are also interested in other forms of needlelace and there is the IOLI convention coming up next week. So you may have to wait a bit before getting as much participation as you want. Please be patient. It takes time for people to find us. To find members of needlelacetalk who have done oya, look at the search box in the upper right hand corner of the needlelacetalk screen. It functions on our network only. Type in OYA and the program will find every person who mentioned it on their profile, and every comment anywhere in the site where that word has occurred. then you can start looking for websites and blogs by our people. It is possible that WE will be the major resource eventually.
I can only comment on the Armenian type of knotted lace - and I am a beginner, too! the knot is worked the same for all these laces, I believe.

Adjust the length of your loop just before you tighten the knot, by inserting the tip of the needle into the knot and you can adjust the loop if it is too big. Pull up the loop if it is too small.
To tighten the knot, I have been told to hold the thread (between thumb and first finger) a couple of inches from the knot, and firmly roll my hand so the thread rolls over the thumb, - ie. roll the hand inwards. I am told I am not tightening my knots enough, and that will be sorted out in class at IOLI!
Elena Dickson has brought out a video on her Eastern Mediterranean lace, and it is very helpful. Especially as I have her books. - Usual disclaimer, - just a satisfied customer!! I was put in contact with her, and she has emailed me with help! I look forward to meeting her next week.
The Eastern Med lace (Armenian) is worked only from left to right, but Puncetto is worked both ways. I am not sure about Bebilla-Oya types. I hope to find out next week!
Hi,
I can tell you a liitle about Turkish oya since I have been researching Turkish bead crochet for my book "Bead Crochet Snakes: History and Technique" and have now expanded my research to include oya. Forgive me if I sound a bit terse but I am having wrist over-use problems at the moment. Oya actually means trim and the word is often seen in the plural form in Turkish writing because there are many kinds of trim made. I assume that you are intersted in the Ìğne Oyalarī, Needle Oya. I have been reaserching that and the Boncuk Oya (Bead Oya) and have produced peices of both styles so far. I wil try to post photos of the Needle Oya.
Oya making has garnered much attention in the West and Japan in the past few years and you can find many books on the subject if you look. I own a copy of "Armenian Needlelace and Embroidery" and have looked at the Mediterranean Knotted Lace book but have found other books more helpful in learning the technique. The best beginner book is a little booklet titled "ThReAdTeDs Oya Needle Lace" by Berta Hensen-Minten. She is a Dutch teddy bear artist who learned to make oya flowers from a Turkish woman in Amsterdam. Her book is availalbe in English and comes with a little kit of needle and thread so you can start learning right away. You can buy the book on Ebay or at her website. www.threadteds.com.
Two other books have directions in them specifically for Turkish needle oya: "Oya Culture Since The Ottomans", a Turkish publication with English translations, and "Igne Oyalari" published by Ondori and all in Japanese. I managed to learn something from both books but found ThreadTed's book to be the one that helped me understand the other two books. There are quite a few other books that just have examples of oyalari but I won't mention those now.
A word on thread, Berta includes a nylon thread in her kit that is what the Dutch Turkish woman are apparently using but the thread used on oya from Turkey is much thinner. The silk thread being sold in Japan for oya making is also very fine. You can start learning to make the knots with size 30 cotton crochet thread or size F nylon thread and work your way down--or not.
As to your tension on the knots and making the loops, it is partly a matter of practice and comparing it to what you see in a book or on real samples. Just like your knitting or crochet wasn't perfect the first time, your knots won't be perfect the first time either. If they are too tight, you won't be able to see where the next row of knots go and if they are too loose, the piece will flop around. Also, most of the needle oya are starched so your efforts will not feel as stiff as finished trim.
If anyone has questions, I will try to answer them. I have hopefully uploaded my first oya flower. To give you an idea of size, that is an American penny behind the flower. I can't find the photo of my traingular trim sample but will look for that later.

Adele
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Elizabeth Ligeti said:
I can only comment on the Armenian type of knotted lace - and I am a beginner, too! the knot is worked the same for all these laces, I believe.

Adjust the length of your loop just before you tighten the knot, by inserting the tip of the needle into the knot and you can adjust the loop if it is too big. Pull up the loop if it is too small.
To tighten the knot, I have been told to hold the thread (between thumb and first finger) a couple of inches from the knot, and firmly roll my hand so the thread rolls over the thumb, - ie. roll the hand inwards. I am told I am not tightening my knots enough, and that will be sorted out in class at IOLI!
Elena Dickson has brought out a video on her Eastern Mediterranean lace, and it is very helpful. Especially as I have her books. - Usual disclaimer, - just a satisfied customer!! I was put in contact with her, and she has emailed me with help! I look forward to meeting her next week.
The Eastern Med lace (Armenian) is worked only from left to right, but Puncetto is worked both ways. I am not sure about Bebilla-Oya types. I hope to find out next week!

elizabeth, thank you so much for the suggestions about tension!! the trick of using the needle to adjust the size of the loops has worked!! it has improved my consistency greatly!

your comments about eastern mediterranean lace being worked worked only left to right has gotten me confused. the book i'm learning from *a TURKISH reference* teaches to work the lace back and forth, both ways, by turning your work to start a new row *just like knitting and crochet*. the part that confuses me about that: i thought turkish and eastern mediterranean lace was the same thing!?!? this is becoming SO confusing!!
adele
thank you for your comments! i'll bet it has been fun, if not frustrating, to research these topics for your book! and yes, we are talking about igne oyalari, or the needle-made turkish lace. i have seen some books on the bead oya and crochet oya, and i may have to check those out too! ;)

i have seen the kit from thread teds on ebay which whom you are referring to, and i contemplated buying it after hearing it suggested somewhere else. the only thing that turned me off about it was the teddy bear. i know it seems that everyone in the world loves teddy bears, but i really do not, a little too cutesy for me. also, it seems a complicated first project for a very new beginner. i do believe that it includes instructions for some oya flowers also, though. i am not disputing the validity of this kit as a learning resource, i just did not think it would best for myself personally.

as far as learning, i am fairing well with the book i have on hand, it includes many simple edgings in needle oya, that are absolutely appropriate for the novice. and if you know of more books to learn from, or even pattern books, that aren't listed on the main page of this group, we would love to what they are so we can look them up!!! personally, i'm a book collector and i LOVE books about my hand crafts!!

also, i know that my tension and quality of work will increase with practice. i think what frustrated me most about it though, was that the book i have didn't mention ANY ways to regulate tension. and in the very few videos on the internet that show turkish women (who could surely qualify as oya experts!!) their hands are just FLYING!!!! it's amazing, but not very easy to see what they're actually doing! lol
Sorry I confused you, Jessica.

When you turn your work for the next row, - again you are working from left to right. (2nd row is wrong side facing) - As you say, Like Knitting.

As far as I understand it, Puncetto is worked left to right, and then right to left, - with the same side (right side) facing you always. That seems to be the main difference, I think, as the knotted stitch is about the same, I believe. I hope to find out more next week, in class!! I am noted for being "full of questions" - and plan to live up to my reputation!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) (Poor Elena!!!)

Thank you Adele, for the information. Obviously you will be able to help us as we try to learn this beaut lace. Well, -- I hope you will help us! You obviously have a Lot more knowledge that we have!!
Jessica,
The booklet and kit from ThreadTeds (without the creative capitalization) is ONLY for the oya. She makes teddy bears like the one on the cover of her oya book and decorates them with oya flowers. Again, the booklet and kit only has step-by-step instructions for needle oya.
You will find conflicting instructions about which way to work needle oya. A common way is to work right to left, then bring the needle and thread back to the right side for the next row, leaving a length of thread on top of the loops of the first row. Your second row of knots incorporates that thread laying across the top of the loops. I have, however, seen people who work each row from left to right and some oyalari instructions have you work back and forth for certain motifs.
One of the ways you control tension is how you pull your knot closed. If you are working from left to right and pull your needle to the left as you tighten up the knot it will allow a larger loop to form. If you pull your thread and needle straight up, you will get a shorter loop.
Yes, I am also having fun with the crocheted and beaded oya but didn't post any photos because I waasn't sure if anyone was interested in that form.

Adele


jessica said:
adele
thank you for your comments! i'll bet it has been fun, if not frustrating, to research these topics for your book! and yes, we are talking about igne oyalari, or the needle-made turkish lace. i have seen some books on the bead oya and crochet oya, and i may have to check those out too! ;)

i have seen the kit from thread teds on ebay which whom you are referring to, and i contemplated buying it after hearing it suggested somewhere else. the only thing that turned me off about it was the teddy bear. i know it seems that everyone in the world loves teddy bears, but i really do not, a little too cutesy for me. also, it seems a complicated first project for a very new beginner. i do believe that it includes instructions for some oya flowers also, though. i am not disputing the validity of this kit as a learning resource, i just did not think it would best for myself personally.

as far as learning, i am fairing well with the book i have on hand, it includes many simple edgings in needle oya, that are absolutely appropriate for the novice. and if you know of more books to learn from, or even pattern books, that aren't listed on the main page of this group, we would love to what they are so we can look them up!!! personally, i'm a book collector and i LOVE books about my hand crafts!!

also, i know that my tension and quality of work will increase with practice. i think what frustrated me most about it though, was that the book i have didn't mention ANY ways to regulate tension. and in the very few videos on the internet that show turkish women (who could surely qualify as oya experts!!) their hands are just FLYING!!!! it's amazing, but not very easy to see what they're actually doing! lol
Elizabeth Ligeti said:
Sorry I confused you, Jessica.

When you turn your work for the next row, - again you are working from left to right. (2nd row is wrong side facing) - As you say, Like Knitting.

As far as I understand it, Puncetto is worked left to right, and then right to left, - with the same side (right side) facing you always. That seems to be the main difference, I think, as the knotted stitch is about the same, I believe.


ok, so i understand now that the turkish and eastern med. laces can be worked in the same way *by turning your work between rows* but i still am curious; are they the EXACT SAME LACE, just by a different name? because that was my first impression, but now i'm not so sure. i mean, there are AT LEAST 10 different names for the turkish needle lace that i KNOW OF, and i know there are more out there.

*NOTE: turkish needle lace, or oya, are generally the names that have been adopted by the international world to reference the needlelace flowers, edgings and doilies which are the topic of this discussion.
Adele Rogers Recklies said:
Jessica,
The booklet and kit from ThreadTeds (without the creative capitalization) is ONLY for the oya. She makes teddy bears like the one on the cover of her oya book and decorates them with oya flowers. Again, the booklet and kit only has step-by-step instructions for needle oya.

that's good to know, i'll have to go back and look at it and consider buying it!!! :D
You will find conflicting instructions about which way to work needle oya. A common way is to work right to left, then bring the needle and thread back to the right side for the next row, leaving a length of thread on top of the loops of the first row. Your second row of knots incorporates that thread laying across the top of the loops. I have, however, seen people who work each row from left to right and some oyalari instructions have you work back and forth for certain motifs.

yes, i knew you COULD work by laying the thread back across the row and starting row #2 in the same place you started row #1. but i COMPLETELY misunderstood elizabeth as saying that the eastern med. lace *from the books by elena dickson* could ONLY be worked by laying the thread back across and starting at your beginning point again. that was my not reading carefully enough.

Adele
I think you all are getting close to the point of clarifying the differences. This is exciting to watch. Is it possible that this discussion of the loose thread is a corded knotted stitch, as an alternate to a plain knotted stitch, and that both are parts of the tradition? (I don't really know anything, this is just what comes to mind.)
that is a very interesting thought about the stitches, lorelei! i had never thought of it that way, but i do believe you could be right!! what a simple explanation that has just eluded me this whole time!! conversely to you not knowing much about oya, i don't know much about other needle-made laces. but i do remember seeing in a needlelace book that was a stitch; like the regular button hole, but with corded return *or whatever it's real name is*! GOOD CALL!!!

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